Do Christians Have To Support Israel?

This is a topic that can be very controversial and a lot of very solid, Jesus loving Christians disagree. Remember, we can disagree in a way that displays grace.

There is a popular belief out there that Christians have to support the nation of Israel in political matters.  I have recently heard a Dispensationalist pastor say Christians must support Israel because they are “God’s chosen people.”  Pastors like John Hagee will even tell you things like if a country chooses to not support Israel then God curses that country and will bring judgment upon them.

While there are extremely valid political reasons to support the nation of Israel, there is no theological reason to support the nation of Israel in political matters any more than you support any other country.  If your political convictions drive you to support Israel for political reasons- great.  There is certainly nothing wrong with supporting Israel for political convictions.  The problem is that sometimes Christians think we are scripturally mandated to support Israel politically. Many people who think Christians are mandated to support Israel politically usually do it because of their understanding of Israel as the “people of God.”

This is what I want to examine. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one people of God, but many people seem to think that there are two people of God: Israel and the church. Ephesians 2 clearly teaches that through the cross and resurrection Jesus has broken down the “wall of hostility” between Jews and Gentiles and made himself one new man- the church (vs. 13-22).  Therefore, Christians do not have a theological obligation to support Israel with the reasoning of Israel being the “people of God.”  We should not separate Israel and the church as two different peoples, when Ephesians 2 very pointedly shows us how the two are bound together as one through the death and resurrection of Jesus. Scripture tells us that God, through His Son, is making one new man made up of both Jew and Gentile. 

Galatians 3:16 also gives us good insight into this matter.  It teaches that the promises of Abraham were not given to Abraham and all of his descendants, but to Abraham and his descendant (singular), and that is Jesus.  This means that the promises of Abraham were not ever given to the entire nation of Israel, but the true Israel-Jesus.  The partakers in the promises only partake because of their union with Jesus.  Therefore, we should not be waiting on fulfillment in the nation of Israel, but understand that Jesus has fulfilled and is fulfilling the promises of Abraham.

With the Bible teaching that there is one people of God- the church- who is all those united to the True Israel- Jesus: then Christians have no theological obligation to support the nation of Israel.  We all have the right to our political opinion and if yours leads you to support Israel that is great (mine do), but the Bible doesn’t demand that Christians support the nation of Israel for theological reasons.

53 thoughts on “Do Christians Have To Support Israel?

  1. Ok, Ill leave a comment on the blog instead. I know that I refer to John Piper a lot and I realize that he is not the only theologian out there but one tends to listen and learn from people who are regarded as biblically sound. John McArthur is another one but for todays purposes I would like to reference JP. Pastor John used to hold to a replacement theology like you. A lot of people who hold to a reformed theology do, I know because I’ve been involved in reformed churches and this issue is about the only issue that I simply cannot agree with them on. If you go back through out the earlier years of Pastor John’s writing you will find his views, which match yours, very clear. That is until he started his Romans series back in 1998. His view changed once he began digging deep into the teaching of Paul in his letter to Rome. Pastor John’s writings in respect to Israel and God’s plan for Israel now takes a very different tone. I only use that as an example.
    I’m not writing to convince anyone because I know it doesn’t happen that way. Only God can remove blind spots, yours AND mine. But I really find it hard to believe that anyone who has REALLY studied Romans, with a heart open to understanding, can continue to hold to a replacement view of God’s relationship with Israel. I also find it hard to believe how people who hold such a weighty view of God’s Grace toward the wretched thing that is humanity can think that same Grace doesn’t apply to his people Israel.

    • Megan,

      A couple things….

      1) I think you misunderstand my position. I certainly believe that God’s grace applies to Israel, just as it does to everyone else. In fact, my position is EXACTLY that- his grace towards Israel is THE SAME as it is to everyone else!

      2) I also agree with you that there will be a revival amongst Israel in which they turn to Jesus. But that doesn’t mean that we have to blindly support all of the political actions of the nation of Israel.

      The primary problem I see is the mixing of politics and theology when it comes to how Christians relate to the nation of Israel.

        • You and Matt are right. Today we have a secular nation of Israel that does not sacrifice, has made no attempt to rebuild the temple and one that sanctions and indeed protects many lifestyles and practices that God’s People just cannot abide under the OLD LAW which is what many are waiting for.. Anyway, where are the Priest that would do the sacrifice? there is not one pure blood Jew on earth today – and no one can trace his linage back to the priestly tribe…hence…anyone offering a sacrifice today would be an abomination.

        • I know for a fact that the foundation of the original temple has already been excavated underground. A Friend was arrested near the Wailing wall after he found a door that led underground. He swears he stood on the cornerstone.The stones to rebuild the Temple are already cut and stored out in a desert canyon and guarded by IDF. The Temple can be reconstructed in less than a year. Once that is done the religious element of iIsrael will no doubt reinstitute Abrahamic rituals.

        • The commission given by Jesus for US to follow says nothing about teaching dispensationalism. It calls for us to teach about JESUS and His offer of eternal life. No earthly temple has anything to do with the Way of Jesus Christ. If we teach what the apostles taught about Jesus, we’ll be serving God well. This has nothing whatever to do with guesses by some about what God might do in a truly 1,000-year period in the future. If we’re busy obeying the great commission we’ll surely not have time to search and research about future possibilities. What anyone believes about future activities should not prevent our obeying the great commission today. That commission says not one word about futurist theories.

      • So we supported the creation of Israel, created through force and fraud. So where is our Blessing? We’ve been falling like a stone since the end of WW2. Could it be that Israel isn’t the real Israel of God? A nation full of agnostics and atheists? Wow I really have to think hard about this. Of course there are the Orthodox Jews, the only ones who have a lot of kids. So the future belongs to them. But there’s a little problem: Orthodox Jews hate Christ with a passion. It’s an important part of their religion, a feature not a bug. Are they the real Israel that we have to bow to? Think real hard. Hagee doesn’t even preach to Jews anymore – they don’t like it! So is he really still a Christian anymore? Think again.

    • So You are convoluting the Church With The Nation of Israel. Respectfully, I don’t believe that is correct. God always had special dispensations and promises for Israel alone. We must rightfully divide the scripture to see how it applies to both the Church and Israel.
      So then I assume you believe Israel is not the”Apple of God’s eye”? Do you believe that when God says that those that curse Israel shall be acursed of God isn’t referring to the Nation of israel? The Second coming is not based on the Church’s status, but on the fact that Israel must become a” Nation” again(which it did in 1948). The whole reason for the tribulation and end time prophecy is that God is giving Israel one more chance for salvation, both physical and spritual. It is a separate and physical reference. Read the book by Hal Lindsey ” The Late Great Planet Earth” and you will see God’s plan explained simply and truly.

        • The present Israel is not a godly nation. The people of God are those who love and serve Jesus Christ. And we are to be found in every nation on earth. As citizens of the U.S.A., we do well to support Israel, an ally of the nation. As Christians, we do well to pray for citizens of Israel to save themselves by turning to Jesus as Lord. That should be our prayer for OUR citizens also, of course. Jesus will come back at the proper time, which has nothing to do with the nation of Israel.

    • Thanks Megan!! I am a SS teacher teaching Romans. I is clear that Israel is a separate people beloved of the Father. Some will be believers in the Church and some will not. There will be the 144,000 saved during the tribulation that will go into the Milenium and will be believers in Christ but not in the Church. See Revelation.
      The Church has not replaced Israel. Romans 9, 10 and 11 make this clear.
      To other who may not know this Read your Bible and may God give you understanding.

  2. I can see where you’re coming from in that the church is now God’s people as he has a broken relationship with Israel. To an extent I could agree and view it like that but I also would be careful how we tread these water lest we become arrogant in our faith. I read through Romans 11 this past week and it’s extremely humbling. I don’t support Israel for blind religious reasons since the state of the heart of Israelis right now are mostly atheist/agnostics. We’re in an age of nationalism where we worship the State rather than a deity and I believe many in Israel do that. However, the beauty about Israel and the reason it has stayed in tact since the 1940s is I believe an indication of God’s promises. No matter the religious state of the people God promised David the protection of his people. If you read up on the political history of Israel since the 1940s and its formation, this newly established state won a war when they were being attacked on all sides from the Arab/Muslim countries surrounding them. To me it doesn’t tell me the strength of Israel but the power of God’s promise even when the state itself is not following the true God anymore. I find that a more powerful statement, and if God’s promise stands true even when they no longer follow Him how much more powerful it is for me as a wretched unclean Gentile sinner such as myself He has opened up those promises to me. I would agree in the sense of what you’re saying that we shouldn’t just follow Israel politics blindly because God called us to love Him with all out minds not just heart and strength. I would also caution you on these views though because Paul gives clear warning that we Gentiles don’t become arrogant about our faith in comparison to Israel’s unbelief because just as God can cut off Israel He can do the same to us.

    • Amber,

      Amen and I agree. We don’t lord our faith over Israel, at least we shouldn’t. God said he did it this way in fact to make them jealous of our relationship with God that they might repent and turn back to him!

      The only thing I would challenge you on is putting to much weight on historical happenings against what Scripture teaches in the passages I sight above.

      • Citing scripture passages about “Israel” have nothing whatever to do with the present nation of Israel. The nation is an ally of this nation. That’s good. The nation deserves our friendship as a nation. But it is not protected by God as HIS PEOPLE. The Church is the people of God in every land. Citizens of the present Israel have nothing in common with any Bible teaching about Israel.

        • You have gentiles in the latter portion of Matthew gathered together as either the goat or sheep nations, but you do have the righteous gentiles set apart in that judgment when Jesus comes back to Earth. And Jesus refers to someone else called, “the least of THESE my brethren,” which the gentiles know not of? WHO ARE THEY but the Jews or ethnic Israel who were persecuted in the last seven years of God’s dealing with the Jews…a time when even the churches do not exist, the people of which being in heaven…resurrected and changed. Zechariah has these people as being a remnant of the saved portions of Judah and Jerusalem that have not perished when the nations come up against Jerusalem, a very political thing if I can understand such a thing to be,and what does God call these one third surviviors?

          Zechariah 13:8-9(KJV)
          8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
          9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, IT IS MY PEOPLE: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    • I feel I must ask a few questions here.

      On what basis did God promise protection for His people? How did/does He define those who make up “His people”?
      When you speak of Israel and God’s promises to Israel…are we speaking of an ethnic group? religious group? political group? physical nation? covenant people? remnant? one person (Jacob)? one person (Christ)? I think much confusion on this issue exists because people carelessly move back and forth between definitions of “Israel”.

      It is not “arrogant” with regard to faith to hold the position Matt has suggested. No more arrogant than dismissing it without serious study of such a viewpoint. It is not arrogant to say the same thing God’s Word says with regard to Jews and Gentiles and the way people are saved and made right before God and called His people.

      • Jason,

        To be fair, I don’t believe that Amber was referring to me or those who hold my position as “arrogant.” I think she was speaking from a theological perspective of saved Gentiles being arrogant over Israel because of their relationship with God.

        Could be wrong, but that was my read of it.

        • You got it right Matt :-) thank you for your gracious response!

          Jason, good challenging questions for me! :-) I refer to Israel as the tribe or ethnic group. In God’s promise to David you see Him promising of course Jesus as the offspring who came from the tribe of Judah. (2 Samuel 7) Judah is the only tribe left and the name “Jew” came from the word Judah as they became known and where we find the first references of the Hebrew people being called Jew during their exile in Babylon. I of course slurred that passage to mean all of Judah not just Jesus so that was my bad.

          I get the protection of Israel/Judah idea specifically from Zechariah 2:2-8.

          These are my own thoughts and convictions though. Not trying to debate just trying to clarify my own thoughts. :-) Regardless of what I think God will do as He pleases and that I will follow and worship in.

          My apologies for the confusion and misrepresentation! :-)

    • At one point Paul even says that the only reason Gentiles were allowed in is because Jews fell away. That really doesn’t fit in very well with the Great Commission of Christ to go out and teach All Men. Paul was still clinging to Judaism too much obviously. And indeed he wasn’t the only one. The early Church had to struggle against Judaizers, who wanted to drag Christianity back to Judaism. They are two separate religions now. The only way that could have been avoided would have been for the nation of Israel to have accepted Christ. They didn’t and thus the two must remain separate – and at odds with each other. The Church always understood that until modern times. The Jews still understand it, thus their attempts to subvert Christianity with the Scoffield Bible, etc.

  3. Thanks for writing this, Matt. I think a lot of Christians believe it is our responsibility to blindly follow the Israel government no matter what and its refreshing to see another opinion.

    I think the craziest thing is when people use verses about God blessing those who bless Israel as a reason to do things that are clearly unbiblical, especially things in the arena of war and killing.

    I’ve even heard people say things like “I think we should stop giving foreign aid to every country except Israel, because we are being blessed through them.” Really? Is it really a blessing to have higher taxes and take on more debt so that we can prop up another government? I don’t think so.

    • Tyson,

      I agree. There are a lot of dangerous views with harmful implications that come out of bad hermeneutics when it comes to how we relate to Israel. John Hagee and people like him are the best example.

    • Yes, it’s pure Idolatry of a Nation. And the really sad part is that it’s not even our own Nation. No pride or dignity whatsoever. And not just of any foreign nation, but a nation that despises Christ. Utter craziness and abasement. Evil.

  4. I think it should be made clear here that those who do not separate the people of God up into multiple groups DO understand and believe Romans 11. Our goal should be to make sense of Romans 11 in light of the rest of Scripture, not as if it is the trump card on the issue.

    If your understanding of Romans 11 causes you to butcher Galatians (I am looking at you, Dispensationalists), then your understanding of Romans is wrong.

    I think Matt’s view is consistent with the biblical data and gives the best, most coherent reading of Scripture.

    • I will be the first to admit that Romans 11 is in fact quite humbling… It is also a very difficult passage to wrap our minds around.

      With that said, you are right that we must make sure we are taking all biblical passages into account and allow for Scripture to interpret Scripture.

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  6. I think alot of the confusion that surrounds Israel and what we should do concerning them is centered on the words “I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel”. Many take the word “bless” as meaning that we HAVE to go along with anything and everything Israel does, regardless of whether it’s right or wrong. Many believe that we should put our military in harms way every time Israel decides to go to war with someone.

    I don’t believe God meant that when He said those words… and there are many living in Israel today who are not even desendants of Abraham.

  7. Ariadne Lourie,

    I deleted your comment because you accidentally wrote it on the “Comment Policy” page.

    If you leave another comment on this page I am happy to engage with you. :)

  8. I feel sorry for you matt. You cherry pick your scripture. Apparently you do not use God’s Word for the English speaking people, the 1611 KJV Bible. You also make your own interpretations of the scripture. I will trust the KJV before I will trust man’s version of God’s Word.

    Go back to Genesis. God clearly established his covenant with Abraham and all of his descendants. We gentiles are grafted into the tree (family) thanks to the rejection of Christ as Lord and Saviour via crucifixion on the cross. God never abandoned the Jews and He never replaced them with the church. To have done so would have violated the covenant and made God a liar and therefore a sinner. Hopefully you will agree that God does not sin.

    • Ken,

      A few of things:

      1) Which Bible translation you use is quite irrelevant to this discussion.

      2) Instead of making baseless claims try dealing with my actual post. If they aren’t baseless then put together a legitimate point rather than just taking shots.

      3) I never said he “abandoned the Jews.” I make the case that in Jesus are the promises eventually fulfilled and he is making “one new man,” as the Bible teaches, of both Jews and Gentiles. Romans 11 teaches that many Jews will in fact return to the Lord through repentance and faith.

      • So we wouldn’t have been “grafted on” if the Jews HAD accepted Christ? This is the deepest Jewish belief: a King who will crush the Gentiles, leaving only the ones alive who are willing to be slaves. Read the Talmud. They don’t even see us human. It has only gotten worse thru the ages: the Mishnah was worse than the Old Testament, and the Rabbinical commentary on the Mishnah is even more bigoted again.

        Christ condemned the Pharisee sect and its secret beliefs that came from Babylon. It was only an oral Tradition then but He clearly knew and hated it. Virtually all Jews alive today are Pharisees. So that’s where it is. We are enemies – unless we give in and bow down. Or allow them to take Christianity and Judaize it. I don’t know what to say about that verse from Paul. He was an incredibly great Man and Apostle. But he had been a Pharisee and it shows here. And I know what I’ve done is outside permissible Bibical exegesis, but I see no other answer. Do you?

    • I am sorry Ken, but the KJV, while I use it for the basics and a reference and the words in memorizing, there is a fault with some of the interpretations that carry on a tradition deceitfully used in the Latin Vulgate that even the Tyndale and the Geneva Bibles fell into. I translated the Latin for 2 Peter 1:20 and discovered that there might be a changing of some cases compared to the similar language of the Greek that gives a different translation. It should read “this first knowing that every prophecy of scripture is NOT OF ITS OWN INTERPRETATION.” Now even the Greek of the KJV has this, so it is in the translation not the basic Greek text. Peter was giving the Torah law of Moses concerning the testimony of multiple witnesses that establishes a matter, I call it the Corollary One of that law where it basically says, “in the mouth of one witness shall no man be put to death.” It says that in different ways about three times in the Torah. Jesus uses the same in John 5 where He says “if I bear witness of myself, my testimony is not true,” I am sorry, I went through the KJV parchute phase from the master himsself under a Pastor in Cincinnati, Ohio. I do trust the Greek of the KJV a lot more, but I am never again going to follow a translation, like you say, of men when the Greek is obvious in its intent…it is just not that difficult to do.

  9. Just a few thoughts. There is a danger in placing too much emphasis on the Jewish people. If they are “God’s people” perhaps there is no need to evangelize them. Orthodox Jews are not true children of Abraham; Christians are, by being connected to Abraham spiritually (Gal 3:7, 29). Abraham was counted righteous before he was a Jew (before he was circumcised) (Rom 4:9-10). There is a danger in placing too much emphasis on the nation of Israel. The benefits of Christ’s atonement are not to be understood as being limited to one geographic location (Acts 1:8). What He accomplished will bring people from every tribe, tongue, people, and “nation” into His spiritual nation, which is made up of all believers ( Rev 5:9) (1 Pet 29). I do believe Romans chapter 11 indicates there will be a great restoration of (ethnic) Jewish people, which will include Jews who are in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, etc as well as those who are in Israel.

  10. Is it impossible to believe that God is doing several things at the same time? He is perfecting His church–even while he moves Israel, His inheritance, towards His ultimate plan for them, and the whole earth. The Old Testament is full of God’s promises to Israel–physical Israel, the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If God has “replaced” Israel with the church, and His promises to them no longer apply, then He could do the same with the church too, and His word is unreliable. The political realities we see are reflections of a spiritual conflict that we don’t see. God supports Israel, His inheritance, not because they are righteous, but because He is faithful. We don’t have to support every policy to support His people. But it is important that we recognize the spiritual battle that is focused on the state of Israel–and not be lulled into supporting the forces arrayed against God Himself.

    • Bill,

      I never said he doesn’t have an ultimate plan for them, and that his promises no longer apply…

      I said that his plan for them (as the texts I cite state) is to make Himself one new man made up of both Jews and Gentiles, the church.

      This has been his plan all along, through Jesus… this is the heart of Genesis 12:1-3.

      • And when the churches are no more? Where does God move then? The church Age will be a time of revelation of the ultimate plan of God and what we go through in exibiting the work of God concerning grace and mercy and love will be sufficient to stable discussion throughout all future ages, even when the churches as we know it are no longer. God must deal with Israel the ethnic people of God during those seventy weeks of years Gabriel revealed to Daniel. The thousand years of kingdom will suffice to have God rule over “this people” Israel (not the church), when God had us the Church over two thousand years, but we the people of the churches will RULE WITH GOD OVER “THIS PEOPLE” in Christ, during that thousand year reign, we havijng our OWN deserved if you will, resurrection and translation or changing. That is pretty good response to the issues we must face and have faced in being true to the plan and will of God according to His word, even if such response to His will is not really that adaquate, during our two thousand years…and this with some ethnic Jews amongst us.

  11. Brother Matt,
    This is your Blog so block me if I sound rude. But if we are to be commanded to be as perfect as God, then we ought to consider Israel as God sees her and that is 100 percent without merit and a people in 100 percent, currently, in disobedience to Him, and that is why God is planning to do an absolutely marvelous thing, a demonstration of mercy (which Paul pleads for the gentiles to have for ethnic Israel and in your court, you have really none) that will rival that of the Exodus and the salvation of gentiles. You see we do not love Israel for HER righteousness, for as men we see none. If you are any type of replacement theologian at all you would be a bit Calvinistic in the matters of Grace and understand that God is looking at Israel for the benefit of the third of her that he considers the elect and as Jesus calls them in the latter part of Matthew 25, the least of these my brethren. You see God is NOT looking at her the way the world is looking at Israel, dastardly beings in their politics and behavior toward her neighbors. He is looking at her as the little man in His eye, in spite of what she is, and FOR HIS NAME’S SAKE (as redundantly mentioned in Ezekiel 20). In fact the reference in Ezekiel even mentions that God is not even considering her misbehavior at all and He is GOING TO RULE OVER HER and again, FOR HIS NAME’S SAKE.

    During this Church age till the rapture, the churches are indeed the cat’s meow and all you say she is in her individual local, visible presence before some local gate of HELL, concerning Jews and Gentiles being one body, and what the churches had to endure till caught up in our very own special resurrection and change, but then we have the last seven years of God’s undivided attention on behalf of ethnic Israel and Jerusalem. In the great meantime that we occupy God is preparing infrastructure so that when the rapture is completed things will historically happen rather quickly in the “THIS GENERATION” that SEES signs from Heaven, forbidden to the “this generation” of Jesus’ peerage during the time of the Apostles, and only seeing the sign of Jesus as that of Jonah.

    If you are any type of Calvinist at all whenever we get closer to the rapture, every Jew you meet has a one in three chance of being the elect and future child of God, or the parents of the same. And since we do not have the sight to perceive who are the elect in God’s eyes, we love every Jew we see according to the agape love that Jesus talks of in the gospels. Some will be for us among the churches and the rest is in the hands of God to be preserved…which is why we are particularly concerned of their current welfare, disbelieving or not.

    I do not know much about Hagee and how he views them, but there is a VERY important responsibility for us during what is left of our church age and opportunity to show mercy to the apple of God’s eye as Paul admonishes, and some of them may very well come to Christ under our tutelage as we bring them in with us in joy, and the rest are preserved, as another legacy of the churches in the church age, when our age is passed, our reputation will continue and the angels will have been edified as to what the plan of God is for the ages. But we have the oracle that lets us understand our place in God’s plan and we ought to appreciate our responsibilities as we rejoice in God’s desire to rule over his ethnic people for His Name’s Sake, which ought to be precious to us as well, and give up our jealousy that God can have more than one interest at a time. At the final end, WE will be ruling with Christ over the Jews in the final thousand year KINGDOM experience, of those surviving the last seven years devoted to Jerusalem and a national and absolutely ethnic Israel, so we ought to practice loving her now. Should we not rejoice in the joy of our God?

    • Stephen Ray Hale,

      You do not sound rude, just antagonistic.

      I am a Calvinist and I do believe that God will be saving a great number of ethnic Israel for his name sake before Christ returns.

      With that said, it don’t negate anything I said in my post whatsoever. Yes, God says he will bring many people of ethnic Israel back to himself (Romans 11), but that doesn’t mean we are theologically obligated to support all of the politics of Israel today.

      • Antagonistic? I guess I Never thought it on that level. How about in the same spirit that God seems to have concerning Israel when He says that He will bring ethnic Israel back and He will rule over that people and that not for any righteousness they have done but in spite of their disobedience FOR HIS NAME’S SAKE…to be found in that chapter 20 of Ezekiel? As for rudeness that was my concern, for being concise is not my forte and I desire to put more into my sentences then I can…really, so my response in contradiction of your points I believed would sound rather rude, and I wanted you to have that option to withhold my comment rather than bring in a spirit you might not desire.

        I wish I could believe it was just the politics that Preterists and other types of replacement theologians object to, but that is not really so and you would, well for sure the groups that I mentioned would, have America divide Israel with impunity and without objection from the Dispy crowd and I believe THIS is a danger to our own “Republic above and beyond the other type of dangers we have seen her put under due to abortion…the other nerve frazzling of God we subject God to.

        As a Dispy, and perhaps in contradiction to the emotional types who desire credibility in making like prophets and predicting signs and such so they insist against scripture to set dates, I do not believe there is any other sign than the rapture, though according TO scripture we see a lot of infrastructure building that God is involved in during our church age so that when the “this generation” of Israel’s final seven years (according to Daniel) comes in after the rapture, things go along quite rapidly and already in place such as Israel being a nation so that the Judah part and Jerusalem will be already under government of Jews. Of course I am seeing this in Zechariah 12-14.

        My hurry is to see America NOT divide Israel as Kerry is in danger of doing. Our government is NOT a friend of Israel but the people of this land, for the most part of the wise ones, are. I see two scenarios why America does not appear to be in prophecy, and one is that we divide Israel and we are destroyed way before the rapture or we turn America back from the brink and perhaps even regain a bit of the Liberty or freedom to do that which is right in the sight of God that America was basically founded upon in spite of the mean features of the enlightenment. In this latter case, the rapture occurs with a goodly forty or so percent, including you kicking and screaming, torn from the land and the land falls into such a mess due to the lack of a personnel infrastructure that America could not even field an army against Israel even if she wanted to. As a Dispy I am NOT looking at the rapture to relax in anticipation my duties as a Christian servant involved in hindering the antichristian works. I long to see at least an America returning back to her true roots but sans slavery and with that true American freedom we call Liberty which is the freedom to do that which is right in the sight of God, and our government protect that liberty rather than bea terror to our good works as is the case today. I support the likes of DeMar and Joel Mc something or other in their desire to return America back…but not to a foolish (in the Biblical sense where we do NOT consider God’s desire to Rule over ethnic Israel in the land) replacement theology scheme where we ignore Israel and God’s infrastructure.

        As for you not negating your position, I have not even begun to dismantle your framework that leads you into challenging the Dispy position concerning Israel…though I care not for the charismatic aspect of how Hagee does things. I have a rather disturbing position concerning the charismatic thinking that gifts are with us today of the quality that is to give the disciple of Christ credibility. The only credibility giving gift a charismatic might even have at all is the agape or unconditional love that Christians have as the ONLY credibility giving gift left according to 1 Corinthians 13. Even Jesus in the Gospel of John the actual last living prophet for the church age until the rapture has Jesus say, “in THIS shall ALL KNOW that YE ARE MY DISCIPLES in that YE HAVE LOVE (agape) ONE TO ANOTHER. They even had that gift when they had the others such as tongues, special healings and special works of miracles and Holy Spirit enhanced memory of eyewitnesses and prophecy. But the marvelous sign gifts to the Jews stopped in 70 AD and the Holy Spirit enhanced memory of the eyewitnesses of what Jesus said and did (a gift of that type of knowledge) found in the last surviving Apostle, John, lingered along with his gift of prophecy until 90 to 95 AD when John wrote his last eyewitness (GOSPEL OF JOHN) and his last prophecy (REVELATION) and according to 1 Cor. 13:10, when that last archiving testimony came and was recorded, then the living presenting of testimony according to the law of two or three witnesses as seen in 1 Cor. 14 around verse 27, in part [not partial in anticipation of a complete but as individual gifted witness of the body of Christ doing “by course” or ana merous (1 Cor.14:27) in reference to the ek merous (or in part of 1 Cor. 12:27 and 1 Cor. 13.9, 10 and 12) according to the law of multiple witnesses of Moses] shall be done away with. We have no prophet to fear until the rapture, and then for seven years there will be occasion for more Holy Spirit work and prophecy, since there will be no more local, visible church on the earth during those last seven years.

    • The Messianic Jews I’ve read say THEY and Yeshua , the Big Jew Himself, will be ruling over everyone else. Sounds like there’s going to be a War in the Messianic Kingdom….

      • Indeed they rule over the gentiles that enter the thousand year kingdom…you know…the ones in Matthew 25 being rewarded while the Jews sit with Jesus with “the least of these my brethren.” And these still have bodies that will need to be changed in that they still bear children, BUT, there will be no resurrection, that having passed on already at the beginning of the thousand year reign. But we the people of the churches will be ruling with Jesus in our spiritual bodies over the rulers of the gentiles, the Jews, because, we are indeed one with Jesus SO….the Messianic Jews who being part of the church age will NOT be part of the earthly still child bearing Jews coming into the land of Israel in its entirely, will with us other churchly made people of God in our spiritual bodies will be reigning with Jesus over the child bearing Jews who in turn are bearing rule under us over the child bearing gentiles to drown out in precedent the last possible complaint against the sovereign will of God to even have an elect, the complaing being something like this, “but if we did not have to see the hypocricy of the Christians and were allowed to see some of the actual glory of God or Jesus, not depending on a mere book (Bible) to bear witness of HIM, we could conjure up the faith to be worthy of God’s mercy.” God will show them the hidden hypocrits during an age when the deceiving Satan is bound up for a thousand years, those who would die a hundred years a child were they discovered during that thousand years to be self inspired disobedient to God outwardly, these having seen the glory of Jesus in a righteous tyranny as opposed to the tyranny of evil WE exist in today,

  12. OH…forgot to mention that the key to 1 Cor. 13:10, the ellipsis that is modified by both “THE COMPLETE _____” and THE ________IN PART phrases, is found in 1 Cor. 1:6 and in 1 Cor. 2:1 where it uses the expected neuter singular word TO MARTURION or the witness of Jesus and of God respectively. Paul USES the ellipsis but is rather timid in doing so without having SOME intimate, near or even rather distant resolution to the missing substantive. In this case the resolving of the ellipsis is in a distant context, but in a place that actually introduces the subjects that Paul intends to discuss. The normal usage of the Greek for witness or testimony is the feminine form, rather than the neuter form that Paul seeks to use in 1 Cor. 13, but found in 1 Cor. 1:6 and 2:1.

  13. Rats…I am being impolite after all….

    Thanks for the forum to discuss these things, and I appreciate it as I do that forum DeMar has and one Bob Green a hyper Preterist has.

  14. Hi Matt, thank you for your article. If you have not seen this video it helps explain how some of the conflict over Israel within evangelical circles started. I had never heard of Cyrus Scofield until I saw this and began doing more digging. There is usually nothing productive about arguing over scripture with anyone, but the narrator explains what orthodox Christians usually believe is the correct understanding of the verses in Genesis concerning this prophecy. http://vimeo.com/29901084

    • JL,

      Thank you for the link… It should be noted that Dispensationalism/Scofield belief etc. has only been around for a few hundred years. Its interpretations do not hold up hermeneutically or historically.

  15. Thanks mattsvo for you insight into this important matter while not being too one sided about it but how do you resolve verses like “Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem” that’s a theological issue and we need to be on the side of the nation who’s chief city is the city of Peace, the city that even Jesus Prayed for and cried over. I don’t think we have to politically agree with everything the Govt which is secular in nature does but we have to be on the side on the Jews because that is the place where Jesus said He is coming back to rule and rein in with His people.. Also we are told to love the Jewish people, they are the tree and we the Gentiles are the branches, if we kill the tree we are essentially hurting ourselves. In the last day the nations will be gathered against that nation and God will be on their side that sound pretty theological and political to me. A false peace will be made with them and that treaty will be broken when all hell breaks loose against its people you can’t say we don’t need to stand with them theologically would that apply to the holocaust too? I think you are simplifying things a bit too much you can’t do one without the other they are in a sense intertwined. We need to make any qualms that Satan have been out to get that nation and its people since the beginning but God is being faith to his word in keeping them alive even if its a remnant.

    • The commission under which we Christians operate is normally called the “great commission.” What we are called to do is to carry the GOSPEL of Jesus throughout the world. We began IN Jerusalem, and have gone on from there. We are to be peacemakers wherever we go. We have NO special responsibility to pray for peace in Jerusalem or to support any government at all other than the one where we are at work for Jesus. Our primary loyalty must be to JESUS rather than to any government. Christians have exactly NO responsibility now for Jerusalem or any other city or nation where God is at work unless we are called to live and work there.

    • So in other words, because God appeared in a Jewish body He is first and foremost a Jew for eternity. My Christ isn’t a Jew even if your Jesus is. Thank God for the Wisdom of the Greeks. The Logos can bring together all Men, the Jewish Jesus can only divide. Of course, the Jewish Jesus is fine when seen in terms of the Logos. It doesn’t work the other way around.

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